Vegans for Palestine Podcast - Episode 13 - Living as a Vegan Muslim in France

French activist Bouchara joins Rayan to discuss veganism, racism, Islamophobia and political activism in France. A long-time anti-speciesist and animal liberation advocate, Bouchara shares how her journey to veganism stems from childhood compassion for animals and scientific inquiry into animal exploitation. Her research focuses on the intersections between speciesism, sexism, racism, and other systems of domination, using a sociopsychological lens to explore how prejudice influences societal attitudes toward animals and veganism. For migrants and people of colour—especially Muslims—entering French vegan spaces is further complicated by systemic racism, Islamophobia, and exclusionary practices within white-dominated activist circles. Bouchara shares painful experiences of being sidelined from leftist and vegan movements for addressing racism or expressing her Muslim identity.

The transcript for this episode is edited for accessibility here.

Follow Vegans for Palestine here.

Clip used in this episode is from the following source: Unabated Police Brutality, Racism, And Islamophobia In France - watch here

The Palestinian Musician featured in this episode is Nai Barghouti  ناي البرغوثي

Nai Barghouti is a Flutist and Singer.

Follow Nai here or here on youtube. 

The Vegans for Palestine Podcast Team appreciate Bouchara's time in joining us and value the amazing work of Nai Barghouti.

Transcript

 [Music]

يالي عليك القلب حزين
وهادي سنين
تدمع العين
لحبيبة يا فلسطين
آه يا وين العرب نايمين
آه يا زينة البلدان، قاومي
ربي يحميك
من ظلم الإخوة العديان
و الصهاينة للي طامعين فيك

Oh, you whose heart is sad

And these are years

The eyes tear up

For my beloved Palestine

Oh, where are the Arabs sleeping

Oh, you most beautiful country, resist

May God protect you

From the injustice of your hostile brothers

And the Zionists who covet you

DALAL: Hello, I am Dalal and this is episode 13 of the Vegans for Palestine podcast. What is it like to be vegan in France? Bouchara joins Rayan to talk about vegan sociopsychology and why so many diaspora Arabs are reluctant to join the vegan movements in Western societies. Enjoy this one.

BOUCHARA: I'm Bouchara. I'm a French vegan activist. I am vegan for 10 years and before I am vegetarian since 25 years. I’m old. I'm not a young woman, I am an old woman. I am a very big activist for animals since 20 years. my background is Tunisian. I am also activist in union and anarchist federation in France, and I know all anarchist federation because I connected with different federation of anarchism in Europe, and other now I'm not longer activist because it's problematic in France, when you tell you believe in God, and I am - my faith in God as Muslim is very hard. I’m not a good practitioner but I have the faith. the problem in France, in this type of organization, if you tell you have the faith, you are not welcome, and when you tell your anti-speciest, you are not very welcome, because in France we have 20 years of late about the question of animal activist and advocacy of animal and about the perception we have about the animals. it's very important for me. I fight against social injustice and oppression, so I read a lot, i learned a lot about when the human treat animals, and since I am child, I am very close about animal, and all animals. so for me now, it's clear, I have my position, and I defend this position. I am anti-speciesism, and I am member of the movement of total liberation because for me, I fight against all oppression, so the last revolution is the human liberation and the animal liberation. in my research, as I am sociopsychologist and research, my topic is about speciesist, sexism and for me, my approach is intersectionality because we can fight one point without other point. For me, it's global about the domination, patriarchal domination, capitalist domination and spaces isma domination and racist white supremacist or its domination. I began to see videos and I read scientific articles because I am scientist, so I need both. I need to know but my is the conscience? my sorry one minute. 

RAYAN: Consciousness? 

BOUCHARA: yes ah you understand please the cons consciousness it's vegetarian it's easy to become vegetarian because I don't like meat since I am child and I'm it's very complicated for me to eat meat because but when I grew up when I understand that if I still vegetarian I baby of the co and of the all animals when you want milk cheese you know that you participate to killing this the babies so I know what's the call for who have expo exploited for their milk and their babies what happened so for me it would be a shock and I decide to begin vegan about the clothes about all

 you saw some videos about what happens in terms of the dairy industry the horrors of the animal dairy industry and you read up on the literature on veganism and you realize that food like cheese Yeah is actually not just food it's Yeah from animals who have been abused which would have been difficult because I know a lot of Tunisian food and a lot of French food involves dairy and cheese

BOUCHARA:  it's very difficult because in France we are a lot of vegan people we are but we are not a lot and it's begin to have vegan industry can find false cheese we can because French people great industry for the fabrication we can find all we want so but it's very difficult because all supermarket don't have this so we have to go to one and other another but in French there is a lot of prejudice about vegan in the population so it's not easy it's about trade union of farmers like FN about all farmers and the government too and not all people but adult people and they see us like we want to destroy farmer impose our choice to not eat meat and not drink milk it's  very complicated and when we go in the university or in when you work with some other people there is no vegetarian of or vegan there is one vegetarian and it's not very w so it's all this prejudice because in France there a culture and the historical culture and other it's about the food the traditional food the gastronomy you know and it's very anchor in the collective memories so it's very hard when you want people change their mentality and their manner to see to reconsider what they eat it's not the country Anglo Anglo-Saxon you understand Anglo-Saxon country it's like an 

RAYAN: It's not like an English country like the UK? 

BOUCHARA: like different the reflection of the thinking it's very different we have the same problem in Italia and Spain because Spain began to change but it's very slowly I made the parallel you understand the parallel the parallel yeah the parallels between the MR country Arabic country and France because I think it's about the colonization in French colonization we have the lack of compassion about animal I I write a critic of a book in society and animal published about the animal advocacy when they start and create in United States and I see in England too and it's complicated 

RAYAN: before you talked about when you introduced yourself before you talked about vegan sociology and vegan social psychology I'm interested in what that means what is how would you describe vegan sociology as an area of study? 

BOUCHARA: I’m going to tell you the first the social psychology it's all about behavioural and when you work of thematic of veganism you can have a focus on the barrier the choice of vegan plant-based implementation and about the percept representation of animal about the society psychology we can make research on this topic and factors who what the factors who explain why people have a lot of barrier and you can anchor this question in the sociological or cultural context of French I speak about French and about the rep representation of vegan veganism in France and the representation of animal in France farm animal in in far in farms it's about the specism too and domination so I made link with the high specism with no empathy or no compassion or no and in in in the social psychology we have concept like categorization or asymmetric position or representation and is this concept who you can use to explain for me the sociological because I read a lot of in the sociological vegan sociological today you can introduce the intersectionality and made parallel with. As I told you, veganism sexism speciesm, sexism and may the link about all of this have a reflection of my wish is to create interdisciplinarity social psychology and sociological concept to try to respond with this problematic 

RAYAN: if I can summarize and I need you to correct me - vegan social psychology is an area of study that looks at why people become vegan the attitudes and the values and the philosophies that shape their veganism which is also linked to their the way they value animals or the way they perceive animals also linked to public attitudes with regards to what veganism means from a dietary point of view but that's only a small part but it's interesting how you said in your analysis that it needs to be intersectional so you identify the connections

BOUCHARA:  because for me I I read some article in social psychology they put forward or them they masculinity so I made the link with patriarch and a high level of spaces it's two species and a lot of studio about racism but in France when you are mas high masculine high level of specism you not vegan you don't want to be vegan because veganism it's correlated with the woman and vulnerability and feels vulnerability and weak so I don't know I don't think it's all about men they think like that but there is this point so if you want to know how people don't want to be vegan you have to create group about woman men and today these two manner of view these two topics my interest is to see if the notion of racism or implicit racist because in France now you if you are clearly a racist you can the law it's forbidden in the law but we can pass with the Islamophobe so lot of people use the implicit you know implicit racism and I am a victim of this all day in my work I am one of a lot of example I can't finish my PhD 10 years because I have victim of racism and discrimination when I postulate I apply to a job with my competitors all competitors they systematic I don't have an interview and my apply is exclude or when I have an interview they systematically choose the white woman and not me it's very hard I am a master degree you want to highly your position more it's very difficult to get a job with your competency in France it's very complicated and there is a lot of discrimination linked with the implicit racist pre implicit prejudice because politic and media stream always talk about the Islam is not good Islam when you are Islam you are terrorist when you are Islam you the woman don't have right etc so this point of view this this pre this this prejudice is in all the society now when you are Arabic background Arabic or African background and I think we don't we don't have the same treatment in this society I don't know h where we are going in France but now with the actually government and the politic it's very hard and complicated

Dr. Francois Verges: Racism is structural it was institutional and the institution of the state are been contaminated I mean by racism and of course the police which we know through history repress very violently any insurrection any descent any discount in the colony and also of course in France proper so there is already this genealogy of a very structural racist police, i mean during the war in Algeria against the desire of Algerian people to be independent the police in France acted you know capture people kidnap people torture them in Paris, in Paris, you know, in the police station of Paris and kill them and there was a demonstration on October 17 1961 when dozen of Algerian was thrown into the sand and drown alive so what I always say, I mean the government as I mean both I mean all government left and right I have to say even if there is some difference have not really confronted that structural that structural racism within the state and within its institution has also brought of course a lot of people to build France you know, from North Africa and subs Africa and the overseas territory and treated them like you like nothing you know living in practically in ghetto and these people are poor live in very bad housing are confronted with a lot of discrimination and there is this total obsession in France since 2000 with a veil, I mean very strong Islamophobia, very strong islamophobia led also by white feminist and so this you know this context show that you know there have not been a decolonization of the French society.

BOUCHARA: some people are abused oppressed and exploited in the same vision like animals look at the Israeli government look about what they say about Palestinian people they are less of animal it's very it's very make me very angry so in in the language in the in the vision in the all perception representation when people use terms animalistic terms against other people the term for that is animalistic dehumanization I think I don't know if you've heard? 

RAYAN: Yeah and so animalistic dehumanization which entails a process of equating your enemy giving them animal characteristics to legitimize their treatment their genocide their slaughter their erasure and like you rightly said before the Israeli state has participated in there are several examples within the Israeli state of animalistic dehumanization where they've referred to gar and people as being animals less than animals cockroaches rats so on the Vegans for Palestine blog we looked up a lot of examples of animalistic dehumanization by the Israeli government state media and we found that not only is it prevalent it occurred well before October 7th so the Zionist Israeli state has a history of characterizing Palestinians using words that equate us with animals so even in 1938 got the head of an of the Ergon terrorist organization which facilitated the Nakba they said you must create a situation whereby killing an Arab is like killing a rat where Arabs are dirt and therefore showing that we and not they are the power to be reckoned with in Palestine then in 1967 Mosha Dayan the defence minister said ‘we have no solution you shall continue to live like dogs and whoever wishes may leave’. in Lebanon in the invasion of Beirut I think in 1982 an Israeli general said, "You are a nation of monkeys you are terrorists, and we will break your heads you will want a state build it on the moon." In 1983 Raphael Eton an IDF chief of staff said "When we have settled the land all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." 2014 Minister for Justice in Israel Ayat Shak is I think her name they said ‘they should go as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes otherwise more little snakes will be raised there they have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists’. in 2016 the current prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said ‘in our neighbourhood we need to protect ourselves from wild beasts’. so the animalistic dehumanization language is not just one or two examples there's plenty of examples and I think you and applying a vegan lens we can see the connection between animal abuse the dehumanization of Palestinians and other minorities. 

BOUCHARA: for me it's too is this this manner to talk about human dissemination it's too it's too oppression about human Palestinian human people sorry and about animal for me is it's to insult you insult the human and you insult the animal when I heard this this terms of this word for it my heart it's very is break I have the earth breaking because I know what animal are I know their intelligence and their empathy and compassion when I introduce myself I told you I have fight since a long time about social injustice and in oppression And for me I am for the ‘auto determination’? no? auto-determination? it's the same English? 

RAYAN: self-determination? 

BOUCHARA: self-determination of all people and the liberty and not all people will have the choice to choice their life about the Palestinian people I have many years I am pro Palestinian in all conversation and for me I have my heart always connected with Palestinian people and between the after the 7 October I am very concerned about what the is Israelian government bastards do to the Palestinian people and particularly Gaza to Gaza people when you know the historical manner of the state of Israel is created for me it's a colonization I know the colonization with the Zionists began in the 1920 when Palestinian is colonization by the British and the British let it happen when it  to come in Palestinian with kibbutz and an expropriate land of Palestinian so well after the war it's normal for them so for me it's in it's a in injustice it always be for me an injustice what Palestinian people suffer about this decision I always support the action of Palestinian people before the 7 October for me Gaza land it's like ghetto, for me it's the same thing. 

[Music – NAI BARGHOUTI - FLUTE]

BOUCHARA: I was connected with a party in France who the name is revolution ecologic party when they are they told they are anti-speceist and vegan and I am me I was member of this of this group and party and I want to involve more and more but when I speak about the racist notion and about the implicit racism and I want to introduce this problematic in this in in in the concept of veganism and all I have all people because they are majority white I have a lot of problem and I because systematically I told that the head of this party is all white they are women and men but all white and I want I propose myself to join the head who have me or another it began a very scandal and because I suppose they are racist and another thing but I just suggest because there is in the head and all post principal post in this party all they are white and they it will be very difficult for me and because I defend this position and after discussion I exchange very hard they exclude me my experiences in the vegan anti-fascist party in France and I am member with in the international association of sociologist and it's the same thing when I told I am member of Green Islam, they ghost me. 

RAYAN: wow that is so cruel. 

BOUCHARA: so my name I have I am the there are not a lot of people of colour or with Arabic or black background in this this organization because vegan group in west western society are all white they made a wall between or North African people, black people and white people vegan because they estimate that with the always the same thing implicit races implicit prejudice representation of more people or Muslim people or black people they are not interested by this topics I know Arabic people or other want to be become vegan I see them I meeting them in the green Islam submit there is a lot of people from Africa from Jordania from Egypt from Pakistan Aia so in France we don't see them because if you if you begin to speak about this problematic they are oh we are not racist we are not but they all they do it's a wall it's my experiences and interestingly it's the experiences of a lot of people of colour and a lot of vegan art in western societies so it sounds like within the French vegan landscape there are parallels so it's almost like the message that white vegans give us within these institutions is that if we talk about racism we make them uncomfortable because when we think of veganism for you and me veganism is social justice it must mean something very different to them recently in I tried to join politic another political group is the name is NPR new anti- capitalist new party and it's not vegan they explain they are not racist they are not they are feminist they are they there are and I have and in this party there are not a lot of Arabic people or black people a lot of they are white and from social class very middle class or high eye high class eye statue they are very sad because they don't have a lot of Arabic people or black people and when I discuss with them and explain why they don't go understand his life what he experience what the racist experience and you let him or her speak and you accept their they don't speak like you when I explain this they all they don't nothing and after this they are I see the change, attitude change, it's the same thing about the veganism more animal rights so I decide to not join definitely them I don't I don't support I don't have the passions I don't I don't want I need to be in safety group with people who want to really change the word about the oppression about the animals racism all I I'm very happy to see the Black Lives Matter because for me it's a very it's a big revelation when I see this movement

[Music – NAI BARGHOUTI - FLUTE]

RAYAN: I wonder whether other communities and black communities in western societies and I'm talking about migrant black communities so you know migrant black communities and migrant Arab communities third fourth fifth generation Arab in different western societies I wonder whether the racism in the vegan movement is one of the factors that encourage a lot of people within Arab and migrant black communities to not go vegan it deters people in our community from being vegan? 

BOUCHARA: yeah I totally agree yeah because they see vegan people white as racist or not open it's a different treatment I see that about when we talk about young people Arabic young people who live in area in in in France we told when there are a lot of concentration I see people when we talk about this directly they think about a pictures of a young people who don't know to speak good don't know to have a behave problematic behaviour we can implicate this this young people to becoming vegan when white people come with the condescending it's the same thinking position and very scorn I know because I am I experienced it I’m not very marked in my face about my background Tunisian background but when I tell my name and what when I my uncle anchor uncle my background Tunis and background the attitude change about me we have not the possibility to involve implicated Arabic people etc but their attitude about them about them it's problematic and they don't want to have a reflection about this. 

RAYAN: And what I'd like to see inshallah is that the Arab vegan movement grows. 

BOUCHARA: I hope too. We have to. inshallah 

[Music – NAI BARGHOUTI SINGING]

Tiktoker: Also wait - free Palestine,  free Palestine, free Palestine, free Sudan, free Congo, free East Timor, [ __ ], like yeah, [ __ ] Israel, [ __ ] the IDF, [ __ ] Gal Gadot, [ __ ] the Met gala, [ __ ] the US, [ __ ] Donald Trump. Free Palestine.